Will Birther Sarge Debate Frank Arduini?

Last night a Birther named “Sarge” popped into the RC Radio chat room late in the show and began pushing several oft debunked Birther memes that were quickly batted down by Dr. Ken, JTMunkus and others including yours truly. Sarge wouldn’t concede but rather kept changing the subject. The conversation carried on well past the end of the show.

After a bit I challenged Sarge to come on RC Radio and debate Frank Arduini. He accepted (as best I could figure out). I proposed using the same rules that were agreed to before when Frank was scheduled to to debate Scott Erlandson. Scott, as you may recall chickened out. The subject of the debate would be President Obama’s eligibility (I know the question has been well settled but it still should be fun).

Seriously, I will guarantee that if Sarge agrees he will have equal time in a structured and orderly debate format. I proposed that the debate be held on June 3 or June 10. If Sarge is game Frank is ready to go. Sarge even suggested a second debate on “identity fraud”. (I know, I know). We can do that too. If Sarge is really interested he needs to contact me via the contact page on this blog. Let’s get it on.

Posted in Barack Obama, Birthers, Natural Born Citizenship, RC Radio | Tagged , , , , , , , | 2 Comments

Frank Arduini and Charles Tuttle to Appear on RC Radio on Wednesday April 30 at 9 PM ET

Both authors of a recent series of guest articles about Carl Gallups here at the RC Radio Blog will appear on a special edition of RC Radio this week on Wednesday evening at 9 PM ET.

You can listen live or hear the podcast at this link:

Frank Arduini and Charles Tuttle on RC Radio 4/30/2014

If you have a question of comment the listener call in line is (347) 324-5546.

Please join us.

Posted in Cold Case Posse, Guest Articles, RC Radio | Tagged , , , , , | 2 Comments

The Strange Case of In re: Douglas Vogt

VogtThe strange case known as “In re: Douglas Vogt” appears to be going down in flames in record time. If you recall this was the case filed late last year by Douglas Vogt, the copier salesman, pseudoscience author, hunter of the lost Ark of the Covenant, and early self-proclaimed expert who doubted the authenticity of President’s long form birth certificate based on his flawed analysis of a PDF file instead of the actual document.

Vogt pulled a new trick out of the Birther play book on October 18th last year when he filed a petition in federal court in his home state of Washington to ask a judge to order the convening of a grand jury to look at his so called proof of forgery that he outlined in his “20 points of forgery” affidavit. Vogt also filed under seal an affidavit in which he said he “named the forger(s)”. Vogt’s entertaining nine page complaint listed his supposed 20 points of forgery and also implicated no fewer than 15 people in committing crimes against 11 federal statutes. The named parties included President Barack Obama, White House Counsel Robert Bauer, Director of Communications Dan Pfeiffer, Personal Counsel to the President Judith Corley, former Director of the Department of Health in Hawaii Dr. Chiyome Fukino, Hawaii Governor Neil Abercrombie, then current Director of the Department of Health Loretta Fuddy, MSNBC reporter Savannah Guthrie, and eight John and Jane Does who were apparently named in Vogt’s secret sealed affidavit.

The case in the Western District of Washington was assigned to Judge James L. Robert. Vogt of course is trying to live out every Birther’s wet dream of initiating a federal prosecution of Barack Obama. Just read comments any day at the crazy Birther Report blog by the likes of Falcon and others who believe that any day or any week President Obama is going to be led away in chains from the White House door. Vogt takes the fantasy a step further and dreams of testifying before a grand jury on the matters of layers, kerning, and out of sequence certificate numbers.

Judge Robart took a mere 13 days to issue an Order to Show Cause on November 5th asking Vogt to explain why the case should not be dismissed for lack of subject matter. In the order Judge Robart explained that a private citizen cannot enforce criminal statutes through a civil action in an Article III court. If Vogt thought a crime had been committed his proper course of action was to bring it to the attention of the law enforcement authorities like the FBI and the US Attorney’s office. Of course Vogt had already done that. He said so in his complaint and on different blogs. They rightly ignored him as a kook. Vogt has said he believes this author, Kevin Davidson (Dr. Conspiracy), and Bill Bryan (owner of the Fogbow Forum) are guilty of “Misprision of Treason” and warned us we could be hanged. Apparently, supporting President Obama and pointing out that Birthers like Vogt are nuts is a federal capital crime. I assume he has also reported us to the FBI. I am awaiting an interview any day now.

Vogt filed his response to Judge Robart’s order on November 12th. The response merely repeated Vogt’s earlier misconceptions and contained no case citations to support his claim that the court had jurisdiction. One funny item in the response was that Vogt asked for his filing fee to be returned since the court insulted him by changing his “Notice of Commission” to a “Complaint”. Judge Robart was obviously not impressed with Vogt’s response and moved quickly. He dismissed the action two days later on November 14th.

At some point during the time the case was in district court we learned that Vogt had received legal assistance in preparing his motions. Attorney Montgomery Blair Sibley, disbarred in some juridictions and not admitted to practice in Washington State and who had dabbled in Birtherism previously, revealed that he had been writing for Vogt. Sibley would continue on the case as Vogt carried an appeal to the Ninth Circuit.

Vogt filed an appeal of sorts on November 28th. It was in the form of a request of a Writ of Mandamus. Vogt wanted the Ninth Circuit to tell district court Judge Robart to get off his can and send Vogt’s masterpiece to a grand jury. Sibley posted a link to the appeal on his Amo Probos blog on November 30th and included this dire warning to the court in his article:

First, Doug petitions the Ninth Circuit that in so much as Judge Robart, along with the Clerk of his Court, clearly misrepresented the name and nature of Doug’s filing in the public docket, that the Ninth Circuit order Judge Robart to correct the docket to accurately reflect what was filed. Note that it is a felony to so “falsify” a court record.  18 U.S.C. §2071(b) – “Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally” states in pertinent part: “Whoever, having the custody of any such [Court] record . . . willfully and unlawfully . . . falsifies . . . the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.”  Obviously, a pretty heavy consequence for Judge Robart if the Ninth Circuit orders him to fix the record of proceedings in his Court.  Hobson’s Choice #1 because if the Ninth Circuit refuses to order the docket corrected, they are arguable accessories-after-the-fact, another felony found at 18 USC § 3: “Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact.”

The arrogance in this paragraph is astounding. Sibley and Vogt are accusing Judge Robart and his clerk of a falsifying a court record and putting the Ninth Circuit on notice that they better rule in Vogt’s favor or they are criminals too.

In early January Vogt lost patience with the Ninth Circuit (the busiest of all the appellate circuits) and on January 14th he filed a “Motion to Expedite Consideration of Petition for Writs of Mandamus“. In a rare “win” for a Birther the Ninth Circuit acted upon Vogt’s request quickly and on the very same day denied his petition. In a rather unusual step Judges Trott, Paez, and Bea wrote “No further filings will be entertained in this closed case. DENIED.”

Of course Vogt, afflicted with a chronic case of the poor reading comprehension, on January 24th filed a motion for reconsideration. The Ninth Circuit completely ignored Vogt’s motion for reconsideration in effect saying “What part of ‘case closed’ don’t you understand Mr. Vogt?”

So it was on to the Supreme Court for Messrs. Vogt and Sibley. However, before moving on to SCOTUS they first took a small digression while waiting on the Ninth Circuit to rule. In early January Vogt sent letters to 175 federal judges in carefully handpicked districts and included a copy of his affidavit. He was asking the judges to do essentially what he had requested Judge Robart in Washington to do and convene a grand jury. Apparently, Vogt decided that paying a $450 federal filing fee was less appealing than sending a bunch of letters that were to be ignored.

Sibley after being goaded by an anonymous commenter on his blog claimed that the letters had paid dividends and wrote:

 In fact three (3) federal judges have acknowledge receipt of Doug’s Affidavit. Two of them have forwarded the affidavit to their respective United States Attorneys. The third wrote back stating: “I was very impressed by the letter and attachments you sent to me. I do not dismiss the allegations you make as untrue.”  The letter continued with the commitment to submit Doug’s affidavit to the Grand Jury for their consideration. So like a modern-day Diogenes, perhaps we have found one honest federal district court judge.

Sibley linked to a highly redacted letter purportedly from a federal judge. With more than half of the letter redacted it was impossible to determine if Sibley’s version of the letter was accurate of if it was merely a polite brush off. What we can say is that despite Sibley’s claims Vogt has not been asked to appear before any grand jury and no investigation is underway as a result of Vogt’s contact with 175 members of the federal bench.

On March 24th Vogt filed both a Petition for Writ for Certiorari and a Motion for Expedited Consideration because in Vogt’s imagination Obama continuing to occupy office is an emergency. On April 7th Vogt and Sibley followed up with a motion to disqualify the two Obama appointee’s. This was a card birthers like Mario Apuzzo had played before. The recusal motions in both cases assume that even one of the remaining 7 justices want to hear the case. As it turned out in both Kerchner v Obama and in re Doug Vogt they didn’t. The Supreme Court follows “The Rule of Four”, i. e. four justices must vote to hear a case before it is placed on the schedule for argument. Apuzzo maintained that the number required would be reduced to three if Justices Sonya Sotomayor and Elena Kagan recused themselves. The argument is moot since Kerchner failed to garner even one vote.

The Supreme Court is in the process of methodically killing Vogt’s appeal. First it dealt with the motion for expedited consideration by dismissing that on April 24th. Just last week this entry was added to the docket for the case:

Apr 23 2014  Waiver of right of respondent United States District Court for the Western District of Washington to respond filed.

Even though Vogt probably doesn’t know it that was the death knell for the case. The waiver by a government entity to respond means the case has been “dead listed” and will be denied without discussion. Early next week it will be scheduled for a conference where it will be denied. Writes attorney Paul Lentz at the Fogbow:

If things go as they should at SCOTUS, Vogt’s case should be distributed on 4/29/2014 for the conference of 5/15/2014. And while it is already deader than Franco, the official orders list confirming death will be issued on 5/19/2014.

Lest you think this is just someone’s off the wall opinion writing at a forum let’s recall that the Fogbow has correctly predicted the outcome of over 220 Birther cases and has been wrong exactly 0 times.

[Edit: On April 29th the Supreme Court scheduled Vogt's case for conference just as predicted by Paul Lentz.]

Vogt will of course whine that the grand jury has been taken away from “We the People” and their ability to fight government corruption and that SCOTUS is now guilty of some sinister crime of his imagination. Doug Vogt, Walt Fitzpatrick and many on the lunatic fringe believe that any civilian can march into a grand jury and present evidence against anyone. This is not and has never been the case with our legal system. Only prosecutors and in some rare cases judges may bring evidence to a grand jury. The system that Vogt envisions would be completely chaotic. Anyone who imagines they have been wronged would march into a grand jury.

The courts have told these sovereign citizen types many times how our system works. They don’t listen.

What is Vogt’s next move? I have no idea. I can tell you from emails I have exchanged with him his hatred for Barack Obama runs deep. He thinks anyone who supports the President is a Marxist and a Communist. He is arrogant and has an unjustified opinion of his ability to opine on the authenticity of Barack Obama’s birth certificate. He will not listen to contrary evidence. He doesn’t understand why I don’t bow down before him even though in his one appearance in court he was not taken seriously.

I have offered him a chance to come on RC Radio to discuss his positions. I repeat that offer and also extend that to his counsel Mr. Sibley.

For a fine debunking of Vogt’s affidavit we recommend Frank Arduini’s 20 Shades of Vogt treatise.

If you dispute my claims that Vogt is a kook just listen to this recent interview with him discussing his theory on magnetic pole reversals.

Warning: This audio is over two hours of complete nuttiness with many references to his  magic number 12, 068. Did you know Vogt found the exact spot where the Israelis crossed the Red Sea parted by Moses and it was exactly 12,068 yards across as measured on his GPS? The next magnetic pole reversal will occur on October 16, 2046. Just thought you would want to know so you could make plans for a pole reversal party.

Posted in Barack Obama, Birth Certificate, Birther Cases, Birthers, Conspiracy Theories | Tagged , , , , , , | 8 Comments

Farah the Puppet Master

By Charles Tuttle

FarahFrank Arduini recently wrote a series of articles on Carl Gallups, which, either by intent or happenstance dovetailed well with my series on the evil Pastor. I candidly state that I thought his was more thoughtful and better written than mine was. But I think we were going out from different directions. Frank wanted to tell a story, while I wanted to expose Gallups for the fraud that he is. But one question remains even after eighteen separate articles—exactly how did Gallups become the ersatz spokesperson and chief cheerleader for the for the Cold Case Posse?

By all accounts, Gallups was only a pastor (in name only) of a Podunk little church in Florida and wannabe writer when he seemed to come out of nowhere to become, at least in his own mind, an expert in everything from archeology to Zionism, and especially birtherism. What is the connection?

As evil as I believe Gallups is, in truth, he is nothing more than an errand boy, a messenger, who has a financial interest in spreading the word of his master, and it is not Sheruff Joe or Supreme Kommander Michael Zullo. No, it is Joseph Farah, owner of World Net Daily.

My theory, and as of now it is only a theory, is that Farah lost a lot a money on Jerome Corsi’s failed book, “Where’s the Birth Certificate” as a result of the President releasing his long form birth certificate to the public. Yes, Corsi and Farah like to run around claiming that it was a “best seller”, but it reality it never was. While the book briefly appeared on the New York Times best seller list, it carried with it a designation that bulk sales was driving force behind that designation. WND itself was purchasing its own books and were pretty much giving them away with a full tank of gas within weeks of the publishing date.

The April 27, 2011, press conference was only days before Corsi’s book was released in the beginning of May. By May 18, Farah and Corsi were mocked in a satirical article in Esquire Magazine, which became the subject of an ill-fated lawsuit against the magazine and its publishers. Farah and Corsi have repeatedly claimed that the President released his birth certificate in order to derail Corsi’s book. This has become a central theme as Corsi promoted the fiction that the pdf version of the LFBC was a “forgery”. In reality, the timing of the release of the LFBC was in order to embarrass Donald Trump. If you recall, Trump was loudly proclaiming that the President did not have a genuine birth certificate in the days preceding the press conference. While I do not doubt that the press release negatively affected book sales. I have seen no evidence that would remotely suggest that this was the intent. However, the theory that the press conference was used as a “false flag” out of fear of the release of the book presupposes that the .pdf was a forgery. But it is easy to conclude that Farah felt like a fool and that he did not like the feeling.

On August 17, 2011, Corsi appeared before the Arizona Surprise Tea party and was instrumental in getting a petition signed to be presented to Joe Arpaio. The good sheriff then passed the buck to the MCCCP, headed by the noted used car salesman, Mike Zullo. Is it possible that this was a coordinated effort motivated by a desire to seek retaliation against the President for releasing his LFBC and derailing his re-election campaign? The circumstantial evidence suggests that it was.

There is no doubt that Corsi is a political opportunist, if not an outright activist. His book about John Kerry had an impact on the 2004 presidential election. Corsi sought the same kind of impact with his book “The Obama Nation”, which was released on August 1, 2008. When Corsi failed to prevent the Barack Obama from being elected, he shifted gears and focused on attempting the President from being re-elected in 2012 with his discredited book, “Where’s the Birth Certificate”, which was not just a book, but an actual campaign of sorts, sponsored by WND, which included billboards and airplanes flying banners over empty and domed arenas. The fact that there was literally no evidence to support this book and campaign was apparently “of no concern” to the masterminds behind this plan, which had to be carefully controlled.

Remember, Corsi was not only instrumental in getting Arpaio’s office involved in birtherism, he was an active participant in the “investigation”. This included not only providing information from his book, but by providing documents and researching travel records from that time period of the President’s birth. Corsi even participated in the first press conference where Arpaio claimed that he probably cause to believe that the birth certificate posted on whitehouse.gov was a forgery. Of course, Corsi was also the one who introduced Zullo to the esteemed “experts”, such as Mara Zebest, that Zullo relied upon in his initial report. Of course, all of the information and documents that Corsi provided was false, including a handbook from 1968, which was falsely represented by Zullo as being from 1961. Corsi himself later admitted that the MCCCP was “creating evidence” during its alleged investigation.

The first MCCCP press conference took place on March 31, 2012. If you keep in mind that every birther lawsuit went down in flames, with no hope of any success, the only way that the 2012 Presidential election could be affected was by influencing the popular vote. This could only be done by providing “information” to the voters that might sway their opinion. This is likely why we repeatedly heard that the mainstream media had “shut down” any coverage of the alleged investigation. Of course, this was not true. Rather, the coverage the investigation received was one of justified mocking. But this created a problem for the MCCCP, it needed publicity from the media to spread its “message”. Enter Carl Gallups.

I do not know when or the circumstances under which Zullo and Gallups met. I do know that by the time that Rudy Davis had his birtherpalooza in late May, 2012, less than two months after the first MCCCP press conference, and only nine months after Corsi was in touch with the Arizona Surprise Tea Party, Gallups was claiming to be close friends with Zullo and communicating on a regular basis. During that show, Gallups was fawning over Zullo, Arpaio and the “investigation”. The video of that that event was my first exposure Gallups. It is a must see because he inadvertently presented the first conclusive evidence that the MCCCP “investigation” was a complete sham. And while I have no doubt that Gallups was birthering for a long time before that I have, I am not aware of any connection that Gallups has to Corsi, other than the fact that they both have had books published by World Net Daily and Joseph Farah.

Gallups’ first book, “The Magic Man in the Sky” was published by WND on May 15, 2012, less than two weeks before he started to espouse the virtues of the MCCCP in Texas. Obviously, the relationship between WND and Gallups must have existed prior to that date. How long it existed would be pure speculation on my part, but Gallups, who also has a local radio show that is broadcast over the internet, gave Farah a media outlet to shout his memes across the world. Perhaps more importantly, he had an outlet that he could completely control because he is Gallups’ publisher.

Interestingly, there was a fallout between Corsi and Zullo sometime after the second press conference. After the 2012 election, Corsi seem to distance himself from birfing and openly admitted that his intent was to affect the election. Gallups, of course, is still praising Zullo and Arpaio as he spouts his almost daily lies. To what end? Who knows? But Farah’s influence goes further than this in the birther movement.

WND is not only Jerome Corsi’s publisher. Corsi is a regular contributing writer to WND. So, Corsi is WND’s employee, as is Larry Klaymann, an attorney who has handled some birther lawsuits and WND’s failed lawsuit against Esquire. It is unknown where Klaymann gets the money to fund the eligibility lawsuits. Further, Zullo has been playing fake detective for over two years now with no known source of income.

Now, it is conceivably possible that it is merely a coincidence that Corsi, Gallups and Klaymann have some kind of business relationship with Farah. Heck, one could conclude that Corsi, Gallups and Klaymann share their birther beliefs with Farah and it is natural for them to drawn together. But I doubt that is the case. No, this has all the earmarks of a puppet show and Joseph Farah is the puppet master. Dance, marionettes, dance.

Posted in Birth Certificate, Birthers, Cold Case Posse, Guest Articles, World Net Daily | Tagged , , , , , , , | 3 Comments

"God’s Birther: The Fractal Failures of Carl Gallups"-Complete Version

Frank Arduini has posted a compiled, footnoted version of his series of articles on Carl Gallups at SCRIBD. It was my privilege to be able to post these in serial form here. Listen to RC Radio next week when both Frank and Charles Tuttle will be my guests.


Posted in Barack Obama, Birther Radio, Birthers, RC Radio | Tagged , , , , , | Leave a comment

"God’s Birther: The Fractal Failures of Carl Gallups"-Conclusion

By Frank Arduini

How an obscure southern preacher became a hero to “Birthers,” a laughing stock to “Obots,” and the single worst Baptist prognosticator of the future since William Miller.

Jesus Christ's Second ComingThe Great Disappointment

I do not know Carl Gallups. I have never met him. I am aware of him exclusively through the carefully crafted persona he presents on his Freedom Friday broadcasts and special reports via his PPSIMMONS website. For all I truly know, the real Carl Gallups is a perfectly nice guy who strives to be an exemplar of the traditional Christian virtues. But that Gallups never seems to show up for Freedom Friday. Instead we get a smug and insufferable caricature; mean spirited and spiteful; a southern fried hybrid of Phil Donahue and Marjoe Gortner. But it really does not matter which is the real Gallups. What matters is that he is so consistently, comprehensively and unapologetically wrong.

What can account for such exceptional and unfortunate reliability? After a review like this one, it bubbles up as a compelling question. It is axiomatic that even blind squirrels find nuts and even stopped clocks are right twice a day. How is it that Gallups should be the exception that proves those rules?

One common opinion that has been expressed by Obots and disgruntled Birthers alike is that Gallups and Zullo together have simply been engaged in a scam. It is a suggestion certainly worthy of consideration. “Send money” had been one of the most consistent components of their message since the earliest moments of their collaboration, and recently Mike Shoesmith has been compelled to explicitly deny that accusation. But even before the first Cold Case Posse press conference, Zullo was cashing in via an eBook published for sale on Amazon. His excuse for immediately getting his hands caught in that particular cookie jar was that the media had refused to cover the press conference, and so an alternative way to get the story out was required. This is difficult to reconcile with the fact that the eBook was actually already on sale before the first press conference had even taken place.

Cormac Herley, a computer security expert at Microsoft Research, wrote a paper in 2012 explaining why the Nigerian Email Scams are so pathetically obvious to the average person. Using an approach called “signal theory” he mathematically analyzed the con but with an important new insight. He decided to look at the con from the perspective of the scammers rather than that of the victims. He realized that it cost them next to nothing to spam the world. But to make real money, they needed to be able to efficiently tell the difference between the “true positives” (those who would get sucked in deeply enough to send a significant amount of money) and the “false positives” (targets who might seem like suckers at first, but who later got suspicious and bailed out early before they paid off). “False positives” were expensive. They wasted time and resources that could have been more profitably spent on the “true positives.”

In short, the Nigerian Email Scams are deliberately stupid specifically to filter out even those with only the tiniest bit of common sense, and to insure that those responding were already identified as complete idiots.

It is difficult to listen to a Gallups broadcast without suspecting that this is also his intent. Seriously… “universe shattering?” “Deeper and deeper, darker and darker?” “Tons of evidence is piling up,” but “I’m not at liberty to tell you” what it is? Scores of “VIPs are on board,” powerful people with “unlimited financial resources” and “standing” to “move this forward to congressional investigations” or” criminal prosecutions,” but I can’t tell you who any of them are?

What rational person could listen to months of such elaborate and melodramatic gibberish and not run for the door? The argument that this has been nothing more than an elaborate grift designed to separate the most credulous and vulnerable of birthers from their retirement checks is not without merit.

If it is not all merely an elaborate grift, other possibilities certainly present themselves. There can be no doubt that birthism is, at its core, an expression of fundamentally racist impulse. This is not to say that all birthers are racists, or more specifically that either Gallups or Zullo are racist. Certainly, there has been next to nothing in their statements, writing or actions that betray an obviously racist motivation. But they embrace enthusiastically the contention that Obama is somehow “other.” That he is not a “real” American. That he is undeserving of the respect and deference generally offered all 42 previous American Presidents. It is not the wild exaggerations of his mainstream, center-right policies as “communist” or “Marxist” that are the most concerning. It is the conviction that he is himself unacceptably “different” that gives cause to consider the consuming disapproval as a mere euphemism for less socially acceptable opinions.

Finally, there is always the possibility that Gallups and Zullo are actually true believers; that they actually do believe that Barack Obama is not a natural born US citizen, and therefore ineligible for the position he has held now for more than 5 years. Such a circumstance would not reflect well on their intelligence, but then again neither of them has ever demonstrated any but the most ordinary of intellectual gifts. Zullo is demonstrably one of the worst investigators in the history of the profession. And without the technological help of the Internet, Gallups would still be just an obscure southern pastor of only the 2nd Largest SBC congregation in the Podunk town of Milton, Florida.

But true believers are simply impervious to evidence, to reason, to rational considerations of possibility or reality. They cannot be wrong. It s not among their conceptual options.
On October 22nd, 1844 tens of thousands of people gathered on hill tops and looked to the sky. They were waiting for the arrival of Jesus Christ.

These were the “Millerites,” the followers of the teachings of Baptist lay-preacher William Miller who in 1831, first shared publicly his belief that the world was roughly a decade away from the Second Coming. After a series of several missed predictions based on arcane calculations using clues from the Book of Daniel, anticipation had finally soared among the 100 thousand believers that finally, this was it; October 22nd, 1844. Many sold, discarded or gave away all their earthly possessions. Most garbed themselves entirely in white robes, wanting the appropriate dress for their entry into the Kingdom of God. When the day ended without event, it became known as “The Great Disappointment,” and commenced a period of confusion, schism and ultimately vast sectarian realignment among American Christians.

Efforts to explain the prediction’s failure were diverse and legion. Some claimed it had failed because of bad math. Some that it had failed because they used the wrong calendar. Others blamed their collective faith, or rationalized that Christ had actually come after all but was in hiding during the “tarrying time.” Almost none of those who had stood on the mountain tops with their faces raised that day ventured to suggest a simpler, more fundamental reason for the prediction’s failure.

It was never going to happen, period. They were just wrong. But William Miller still went to his grave five years later convinced that Christ’s second coming was just about to happen. Any day now.

That was December 20, 1849. More than one hundred and sixty years ago. It still hasn’t happened.

April 18th, 2014 was almost three weeks after the most recent of Gallups’ failed deadlines for releasing the results of the Posse investigation. On Freedom Friday nothing had changed. “More information” was still coming in. The release still “will happen.” It’s “amazing the stuff they’re uncovering.”

And the investigation, was going “swimmingly”

The End

[RC: This is the final article in a series of guest articles on Carl Gallups by Frank Arduini. Here is Part X. My sincere gratitude goes to Frank for allowing me to publish this entire series. It is in draft from. An complete footnoted version will be coming soon to SCRIBD. I will also link it here when Frank completes it.]

Posted in Barack Obama, Birth Certificate, Birther Radio, Birthers, Cold Case Posse, Conspiracy Theories | Tagged , , , , , , , , , | 124 Comments

"God’s Birther: The Fractal Failures of Carl Gallups"-Part X

By Frank Arduini

How an obscure southern preacher became a hero to “Birthers,” a laughing stock to “Obots,” and the single worst Baptist prognosticator of the future since William Miller.

Any Day NowWaiting for Zullo

A disheartened silence settled over the Posse for the next four weeks. Once again, they had failed to meet their own self imposed and very public deadline. Worse yet, the birth certificate “evidence” upon which they had so completely depended had sublimated away like a dusting of snow in the sun. While they tried to ignore it, the mockery was merciless on the Obot blogs. And in the comments sections of the birther blogs it had become generally acceptable to disparage Gallups , Zullo and Arpaio without fear of being automatically banned as an Obot. Even some of the remaining faithful conceded that while they still believed, it really had begun to sound like Aesop’s fable of the boy who cried wolf, except that in the birther version the boy never actually got eaten.

If nothing else, Gallups had to be getting very tired of reassuring his listeners that he was not lying to them.

If, as Gallups had repeatedly insisted, the Posse investigation was a pursuit of truth, this would have been a very good time to soberly reassess what had been settled truthfully to this point. But if anyone had expected a sincere response from either Gallups or Zullo to the debilitating setbacks of the summer they were in for a disappointment. Drinking from a shared font of paranoia and prejudice, their codependence had evolved into a mutually reinforcing echo chamber of two. There were secrets that only they seemed to share. They spoke on the phone “almost every day.” Gallups’ role as “confidant” had grown to where he now considered himself to be Zullo’s “pastor,” a truly bizarre circumstance to anyone familiar with the age old relationship between Southern Baptists and Roman Catholics. The religious component of their relationship was not insignificant.

The belief that something was “wrong” with the President’s nativity story had for them long ago crossed the line to a religious conviction. Their struggle was “not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.” The escalating obsession with the secret identities of some of the Obots, even at the same time they schizophrenically dismissed them as “irrelevant” and “of no concern” was symptomatic of the belief that they were on a crusade against evil. For Gallups it had always been that way, convinced as he was of Obama’s role in the Biblical end-times. For Zullo it was another step on his path to apostlehood.

By the second week in November, Gallups and Zullo were ready to reboot the “investigation.” From an evidentiary perspective, their new story was starting at zero. But the bald assertions of secret evidence had always worked well for them before, so that was not an insurmountable issue. What was a real problem was that two years of concentration on the birth certificate had delivered nothing, as even the birther faithful knew. No prosecutorial authority had given them the time of day. No congressperson had ever more than pump-faked their support. None of the VIPs they claimed to have engaged had ever come through. When media coverage occurred, it was invariably negative.

They needed a different narrative, while maintaining at least a veneer of continuity with the past.

The reboot formally commenced on November 8th with a PPSIMMONS post titled, “BREAKING! EXCLUSIVE! MONUMENTAL BREAKTHROUGH in Birth Certificate Case!” In a painfully vacuous 500 words, Gallups managed to say absolutely nothing of substance, all but admitting that the primary purpose of the announcement was to fill the vacuum of the previous month. But it also served to lay a foundation for the new spin moving forward. The new rhetorical rules were these:

1. Absolutely nothing new of actual substance would ever again be asserted, promised, hinted at or revealed. Absolutely nothing! Ambiguity was a virtue, clarity an unacceptable risk. This was a position they had actually evolved to the hard way, and had been incrementally approaching its ultimate complete opacity ever since the debacle of the second press conference. Give the Obots nothing to rebut, and there could hopefully be no rebuttals.

2. Equivocation would serve as the deliberate central tactic for responding to previous substantive Obot rebuttals. The stellar example would be their response (from here on out) to the Xerox workflow. They would refer to the workflow as “debunked,” “eviscerated” and “obliterated,” but not because they were actually able to show that the Xerox theory failed. Instead, these were all euphemisms for “we’re not making that argument anymore.” The conclusion of forgery was no longer to be based on forensic evidence, but on the a prior presumption that Obama simply was not born in Hawaii. So it had to be a fraud, no matter how forensically perfect it might be.

3. To fill the vacuum of actual information left by the studied refusal to provide any, two tools would be employed: Promises and hyperbole. If an adjective was useful, it would be used twice. If a qualitative label had been employed previously, the next label would magnify the quality in question. No level of exaggeration was foreclosed. Melodrama would be king.

Even the most casual look at the new rhetoric surrounding the birth certificate would show these rules in action:

I can also tell you that – based upon what I know – the birth certificate issue has been 100% settled. I am not at liberty to tell you how we know, but we now know without any argument or even the slightest shade of doubt – the birth certificate posted on the White House website is a 100% fabrication. (Emphasis in the original).

So there you go. The BC is a forgery. It’s 100% settled. There can be no “argument.” How do they know? They are not at liberty to say.

All the talk about the Xerox machine and reproducing certain anomalies found on the White House birth certificate has now been completely, forensically, and in 100% evidentiary fashion – debunked. The entire Obot minutia portfolio has been completely eviscerated. Their smokescreen has been obliterated. To all of those who have had deep concerns about the matter of the authenticity of the birth certificate – you have been vindicated. You were right! This will eventually come to light. Be patient.

Gallups might have spun this more honestly, but could not have been spinning more feverishly. This was written knowing full well that nothing about the Xerox workflow had been “debunked.”Certainly if it had been, the demonstration would have been inestimably valuable for the Posse’s credibility. It would have compromised exactly nothing about any other facet of the investigation; it would have vindicated their previous months of asserted confidence; and it would have soundly humiliated the Obots who had proposed the Xerox workflow in the first place. Neither Zullo nor Gallups had ever demonstrated the generosity of character to miss such an opportunity had it ever actually presented itself. But it did not.

Since they no longer could seriously pretend that they had proved forgery directly, they instead pretended to reason to it. After all, if Zullo could prove that Obama was actually born in Kenya, or Indonesia, or Saudi Arabia then any certificate saying he was born in Hawaii had to be a fraud quod erat demonstrandum. From now on, their assertions of forgery need have nothing whatsoever to do with any actual evidence of forgery. They could not drop it from discussion completely, after all that would put an even finer point on how futile the previous year and half had been for them. But from here on out the birth certificate would merely be a vestigial side show to the investigation, like nipples on a bull, or a baby born with a tail. “Again,” Gallups droned, “this entire affair is now much bigger than the birth certificate.”

What “entire affair” you ask? Rule 1: He can’t tell you.

Back during the CSPOA conference, Zullo had reportedly made claims that Obama was actually a Saudi, not the child of Barack Obama Sr. or Stanley Ann Dunham, and placed in the presidency by a complex Manchurian plot involving the Russians, the Saudis, the Kenyans, the State of Hawaii, Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground. It is safe to suspect moving forward that while the details might be different, it is a theory of equally spectacular inanity upon which Zullo had now fastened.

For the next several months, actual Zullo sightings became excruciatingly rare. “Updates” when they occurred would be spaced out with several weeks in between, and each update would essentially be indistinguishable from the one prior. In the spaces between, the faithful were fed periodic helpings of contradictory birther chatter; subjects ranging from “Obama is the son of an Indonesian Cult Leader” to “British barrister declares Obama born in Mombasa” to “Loretta Fuddy Assassinated by Frogman with Heart Attack Darts.” Every once in a while, however, a claim or detail would leak out that showed the Posse had grown no more competent behind the curtain than they had ever been in front of it.

On the November 22nd Freedom Friday show, Gallups was engaged in the regular repeat of earlier promises and platitudes, trying to string together as many synonyms as he could for “big.” The “new evidence” (still secret of course) was consecutively called “history making,” then “earth shattering,” and then finally “monumental.” Apparently at that moment Zullo was listening and decided that the hyperbole was inadequate. He called in to set that straight.
Once again, Zullo spent an inordinate amount of time tap-dancing around the “irrelevant” Xerox workflow. On the one hand he worked very hard to portray it as a “red herring” that didn’t “cut it… in light of what we now know,” and on the other he pretty much conceded that everything they used to “know” before the Xerox process was no longer important. Zullo had still not learned the art of matching his words to his music. If the Xerox was as irrelevant as he continued to insist it was, he should have stopped complaining about it month’s previously.

Finished with his complaints about RC and the Xerox, Zullo then took his first step in more than a month to try and reassert his own relevance and that of the Cold Case Posse.

I am going to tell you, and you could take this show and play it in the future that when this information is finally exposed to the public it will be universe shattering.

Instantly across both the birthersphere and its Obot compliment the phrase “universe shattering” became a wildly popular catch phrase. In short order it would return almost 20 thousand results on Google, almost all of them in reference to Zullo and the Posse. It would be held out both as a beacon of hope and a signal of absurdity, depending on which community was using it at that moment.

By December 12th, the impending shattering of the universe came to the attention of perhaps the last active birther at World Net Daily, Bob Unruh. Under the three week old audio clip from November 22nd’s Freedom Friday, Unruh pretended to conduct his own “Exclusive” interview with Mike Zullo. In actuality the quotes he used were all gleaned from Freedom Friday broadcasts, and then disingenuously repackaged with the clause, “Mike Zullo told WND.” It was distinctly reminiscent of Zullo’s own affidavits, consisting as they sometimes did of long stretches cribbed verbatim from old Jerome Corsi articles, but with the insertion of similar deceptive verbiage.

The WND article does, however, stand out for a single tiny reason. Whether Unruh invented the claim out of whole cloth, or he had actually talked to Zullo is not completely clear, though if the latter was the case you would have expected at least a single original quotation in his article. Almost as an aside, Unruh wrote:

Zullo explained that because it’s an active investigation that could produce criminal charges, he’s unable to reveal details at the moment.

But the allegations, he said, which go far beyond a fraudulent birth certificate, could be public as early as March.

It would be another three weeks before Gallups would attach himself to the new prediction, perhaps taking so long because of all the previous times such predictions had burned him. Or perhaps when he did embrace the March date, he did so by accident. It was certainly not clear whether he was speaking from actual knowledge or had simply gotten carried away in a conversation with another WEBY talk show host. But a PPSIMMONS post on January 9th, 2014 titled “’UNIVERSE SHATTERING!’ Arpaio Team to Release Investigation Info in March!” found Gallups’ collaborator Mike Shoesmith committed him to the prediction without ambiguity, without qualification and without any of Gallups’ own tradition weasel words.

Today, Gallups revealed that the long-awaited details of this investigation will be made public in March of this year, a mere two months from now.

Groundhog’s Day had returned to Birthistan. No. I’m not just making a snarky reference to the Bill Murray movie in which the same events repeats over, and over, and over. I mean literally, Groundhog’s Day had returned. On February 2nd, Gallups was back on the airways with an update titled, “Zullo/Arpaio Info Release Update! IT’S STILL ON! March Press Conference on Schedule.”

Nothing of substance? Check! Past mistakes and errors ignored? Check! Hyperbole and exaggeration? Here, judge for yourself:

The information continues to get deeper and deeper. The evidence continues to mount. Documented evidence as well as other evidence that’s extremely, umm, uh, what’s the word? I, I, I’m not, I’m not at liberty to tell what all they have. Okay? I just, in fact I can’t even hint. But I’m just telling you that he (Zullo) confirmed yesterday that they’re still shooting for a March news conference release date of all of this information. Universe shattering.

Gallups launched further into the rhetorical stratosphere when considering whether or not the media would be likely to respond as they had always responded previously, with a collective yawn.

This is so huge. I’ve gotta be careful that I don’t say too much or you’ll kinda getta figure out what it is. But it’s so huge that I don’t think they’re gonna be able to ignore it. I mean it’s that big. And if they do try to ignore it I don’t think that the international media will ignore it. In fact I know they won’t.

There will be an absolute, I don’t mean armed revolt, okay? I’m not calling for an armed revolt. But there will be an absolute American revolt if the American media doesn’t deal with what comes forward. Because what’s gonna come forward doesn’t really, the birth certificate is gonna be a part of it I imagine. I mean because that’s huge. That is huge. But this is not a birth certificate issue now.

Once again, Gallups provided a whole lot of words and said precisely nothing. Five days later it was groundhog’s day yet again, this time metaphorically. All the rules were followed; no actual information was imparted. But also, as in all previously promised deadlines going back more than a year Gallups was beginning to backpedal. Speaking to Zullo, Gallups began to qualify:

I know that, of course that it’s all over the internet and, uh, we’ve reported, you have said and I have said that shooting for a March revelation date. And my understanding is that‘s still the date we’re shooting for, but, but I’ve been telling people, and you can confirm or deny this, but I’ve been telling people that look, uh, there’s been no hard and fast day set, and even that March time period could shift as you continue to work.

After a year and half of this, it becomes a complete mystery why they even bother to set dates.

Another interesting detail came from Zullo’s description of “resources” that Arpaio had allegedly dedicated to the investigation from among his actual detectives. Zullo asserted that:

I know that the criminal investigation that we’re working on now, Sheriff Arpaio has dedicated resources in two full time Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office detectives. These are seasoned pros that are working this. These are the guys that go hunt down the really bad guys. You don’t want these guys trying to find you ‘cause they will find you.

This assertion would in very short order be tested by the Arizona Politics Blog. Confronted with the expenditure of taxpayer dollars after repeated assurances from Arpaio that the Obama investigation would cost them nothing, MCSO spokesperson, LT. Brandon Jones first confirmed and then denied Zullo’s claim. LT. Jones’ final email to Arizona Politics read in part:

I was misinformed. The detectives are not working on anything regarding the birth certificate. Not even surrounding. Mr Zullo was incorrect, they are working on other sensitive cases not even related.

In very short order, Zullo’s schizophrenic attitude towards the Obots was again moved to center stage. The “irrelevant” group “of no concern” were being ignored in a way that only Zullo and Gallups knew how to ignore:

We have a pretty good idea who some of the ones that are anonymous are. One in particular we know works in the field of artificial intelligence in projects that are funded by DARPA. So, that tells you a lot right there. We have traced IP addresses going back directly to the administration. What we’re finding on those is very suspicious as to when log-ins happen and when things are posted.

Zullo then proceeded to offer a description of DARPA that would have been just as at home in an Austin Powers movie, complete with “killer robots” and “psychological warfare.” It was all in all a fascinating account, given the fact that just a few seconds later Zullo would offer advice on how to deal with these ominous administration DARPA Obots. “Turn ‘em off. It’s the simplest thing to do. Turn ‘em off… they are irrelevant like I’ve always been saying.” Perhaps the clearest sign of Gallup’s capacity to follow this advice was in the title that PPSIMMONS put on the clip. “Zullo: Some Obots Working for Obama Regime – “I’VE GOT THE PROOF.”

On February 8th Mike Shoesmith announced a Prayer Support Group for the Cold Case Posse, intimating that they were at risk of being murdered by the Obama administration. Towards the end of the discussion, Gallups took the opportunity to backpedal further on the March release date.

It is coming down to the hour. I mean tomor… March is right around the corner. And as you just heard Zullo say and I was saying, I mean it, I, I don’t know. He didn’t give me this percentage. But it sounds like about a 90% chance it’s gonna come off in March. But it could be a little bit later simply because the evidence continues to mount. And, and you know Mike Zullo talks to me about these things and I know what’s going on and it’s overwhelming. It’s unbelievable. And, uh, er…universe shattering. So if we need to wait ‘til April or May or June, I mean, those are not Zullo’s words, these are mine. If we need to wait ‘til then to get this out and to get it out there good so the world knows it? Man, I’m cool with that.

By the beginning of the decisive month of March the Posse appeared to be slipping further and further away from any likelihood that they could finally put their money where their mouths had been since the spring of 2012. Two years of “new evidence” had delivered exactly no new evidence, and witnessed instead the evaporation of the old. On March 6th Gallups posted a video that cataloged almost every old piece of meretricious hearsay he could find and more than a few long debunked falsehoods under the title, “BREAKING PROOF! OBAMA BORN IN KENYA – Long Form BC A FRAUD?” The most recent of the “breaking proof” dated from 2010, and much of it was as old as 2008. None of it had originated with Zullo or the Posse.

As so often happens when things are going poorly, people pile on. On March 9th another assault on the credibility of Zullo and the Posse arrived from an unexpected direction. The impetus for the Posse investigation had actually arisen two and half years earlier from the Surprise Arizona Tea Party, and specifically through the effort of Tea Party member Brian Reilly. More importantly, Reilly had been deputized into the Posse investigation himself and participated as a formal member from April 2012 until resigning in frustration just over two months later. His account of the inner workings were published in an open letter on the Obama Conspiracy Theories Blog, and it was devastating; Particularly in its portrayal of Zullo as volatile, paranoid, credulous and occasionally memory challenged.

The opening paragraph of his letter captured a sentiment that was universal among Obots, and had long before gained significant traction among the birthers:

Once again, America is being told by Birther news outlets that new, universe shattering evidence about the Obama investigation will be released by Commander Mike Zullo and his non-profit, all volunteer, Cold Case Posse in March, or possibly April or possibly May or, possibly never, depending on who the Birther spokesperson is for the day. Even if new evidence were released this month, the Cold Case Posse has cried wolf so many times, who really is going to listen, except hardcore, agenda driven Birthers?

By the fourth week of March it was clear to all but the most blinkered birthers that Gallups and Zullo were going to miss yet another of their self imposed deadlines. On March 21st, Mike Shoesmith went on PPSIMMONS in a transparent effort to model the behavior that Gallups was desperately hoping would be a more general birther response to the pending failure. He began by establishing that he was just one of the ordinary folks in the listening audience:

You know, I am in the exact same boat that many of you are. I’m like, when are, is Zullo and Arpaio going to release the universe shattering information? Because you know what? I don’t know anything either. I just don’t know anything. I’m, people are emailing me going “Come on you guys gotta, here it is the 21st of March already and we were promised that it was gonna happen in March.” And, “Where is it?” and people have been emailing me since March the 1st saying, “Well come on now. It’s March.” Well you know what? I’m in the same boat guys. I’m like, man, when are they gonna release this thing? And I think to myself, man, this is, we gotta get this out now.

But of course, the purpose of Shoesmith’s video was not to demonstrate that he was “everyman.” It was actually to make preemptive excuses, and that’s what the remaining six minutes were spent doing. Most ironically, Shoesmith also made an effort to assert that March was never actually promised as the release date, having apparently forgotten that the unqualified, unambiguous promise of a March revelation was made under his personal byline. In the greatest effort to dampen expectations to date, he even intimated that the release might actually take months, years, even “more than a decade.” And towards the end, he finally telegraphed the real concern that had prompted this otherwise pointless preview of the deadline’s impending failure:

You guys have gotta let the process happen. Nobody has done anything to rob you of donation money. This isn’t a Ponzi scheme or any kind of scheme at all to get people to donate money to a group. That’s not what this is.

Much of the birther rank and file were no longer buying it. Not on The Birther Report. Not on Free Republic. Zullo and team had lost Taitz and her most loyal minions months before. The circle of people willing to believe and support was shrinking. Shoesmith’s plea seemed to indicate it was affecting more than just the contributions to the Posse. Certainly, Gallups was hearing complaints.

Adding injury to insult, on that same day the long awaited decision on the Alabama Ballot Challenge was handed down by the Alabama Supreme Court. Birther hopes had been high from the start, since two of the justices on the panel were already explicitly birther friendly, and all the others were Republicans. The case was also of particular interest to Gallups, as Zullo had submitted a lengthy affidavit at the request of birther Attorney Larry Klayman. It was this affidavit and its great length (if not great content) that Gallups had touted regularly on his program for months.

To no rational person’s surprise, the decision was another birther defeat, 7 to 2. Even PPSIMMONS’ Procrustean efforts to twist the decision and dissents into something vaguely fitting a comfortable birther bed could not hide their frustration. Their article impotently whined that:

Our readers may also remember that Zullo submitted a 40-page affidavit, attesting to his findings of fraud, to the Alabama Supreme Court, in this particular case, at the request of court officials. That document also contained the fact that Reed Hayes, a digital document expert often employed by Perkins-Coie law firm, submitted a lengthy sworn affidavit to the Zullo investigation that the Obama long form birth document was a fabricated forgery. Perkins-Coie is the law firm that Obama has used in the past in the defense of his birth certificate questions.

PPSIMMONS was confused. Zullo’s affidavit was 69 pages long, not 40. And of course, Zullo’s affidavit was not submitted “at the request of court officials,” unless one misunderstood birther Attorney Klayman’s status as “an officer of the court” as something very different. And as to Reed Hayes, he was not a “digital document expert,” was not “often employed by Perkins-Coie,” his report was not a “sworn affidavit ” (though it was 40 pages long), it was not submitted to the court at all, and his name was never even mentioned.

March was not quite shaping up as Gallups had led his listeners to hope.

As pages continued falling off the calendar with no news conference in sight, the videographer who months before had pulled the boneheaded move of briefly releasing Zullo’s embarrassing non-performance in front of Representative Woodall struck again. On March 26th he released a 9 and a half minute “teaser” for the Posse news conference. It was arguably the single most professionally produced birther video in the five years of the issue. The problem was that it had specifically been created in anticipation of a second round of “Sheriff’s Kits” that the truest of believers expected would immediately follow the big reveal. But at the time of its release it was a trailer to nowhere.

As the dramatic opening graphics splashed across the screen, an amateurish last second edition completely neutered the video’s intent by drawing attention to yet another missed deadline. The intended message was “The Greatest Fraud in World History is About to be Revealed.” But superimposed over that message was the only message that actually counted. “No Official Announcement Date Has Been Given. Much Patience is still required. Thanks for your continued support.”

On March 27th, Gallups dissonantly revived the years old birther trope that Hillary Clinton and Chris Matthews were the “First Birthers.” Of course, the claim about Clinton was a lie, and Matthews’ ancient misstatement that Obama was born in Indonesia did not even reconcile with any but the goofiest of birther theories. Worse, just 21 days earlier Gallups had been cataloging other equally ancient hearsay as “proof that Obama was born in Kenya.” Here we were a mere three weeks later and Gallups was now asserting (in a delusional recollection of an event that never took place) that he had personally heard Hillary Clinton claim she had proof of Obama’s Indonesian birth on Fox News,

March was burning down around him, and Gallups was no longer even trying to keep his own story straight. Born in Kenya, born in Indonesia, what was the difference? It is fair to suspect that the confusion displayed by Gallups regarding the most fundamental details of his own birther theory was a direct reflection of Zullo’s confusion as well; The same confusion that had repeatedly led them to impulsively announce pending revelations and then, when the time came to make them, realize that they had no compelling story to actually tell.

On the penultimate day of March the frustrated sense of anxiety blanketing the birthersphere was at a fever pitch. On the birther blogs, those who were already declaring another Gallups failure outnumbered the tiny number of remaining hopefuls almost two to one. On the Obot blogs, full helpings of smug snark could be found with almost every mouse click. And the closest thing to an announcement from Zullo and the Posse that could be found anywhere on-line or in the media was a frustrated and flaccid message from Zullo that “If people don’t hear it from me, it isn’t true. Furthermore, when I release information about this it will be released to Carl Gallups and through PPSIMMONS.”

April Fool’s day 2014 broke across the globe without incident. And nobody heard it from Zullo.

To be concluded…

[RC: This is the tenth in a series of guest articles by Frank Arduini. Here is Part IX.]

Posted in Barack Obama, Birth Certificate, Birther Radio, Birthers, Mike Zullo | Tagged , , , , , , , , , | 2 Comments